In this episode of The Showrunner, we’re going to discuss three big ideas about learning that come straight from Peter C. Brown, the lead author of the Make it Stick: The Science of Successful Learning.
The three big ideas are:
- Why learning is more about pulling information out than putting it in
- Why difficulty is desirable
- The importance of having a growth mindset
Oh, and we settle last week’s ultra-important debate about the term “gamer.” 🙂
The Show Notes
- Amazon — Make it Stick: The Science of Successful Learning
- Follow Jerod on Twitter: @jerodmorris
- Follow Jonny on Twitter: @jonnastor
- Showrunner FM
No. 093 How to Learn (and Teach) Better
Voiceover: Rainmaker FM.
Jerod Morris: This is Rainmaker.FM, the digital marketing podcast network. It’s built on the Rainmaker Platform, which empowers you to build your own digital marketing and sales platform. Start your free 14-day trial at RainmakerPlatform.com.
Welcome to The Showrunner, where we have one goal: teach you how to develop, launch, and run a remarkable show. Ready?
Welcome back to The Showrunner. This is Episode No. 93. I am your host Jerod Morris, VP of marketing for Rainmaker Digital. I will be joined momentarily, as I always am, by my unabashedly gloating co-host, Jonny Nastor, the host of Hack the Entrepreneur.
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Settling Last Week’s Ultra-Important Debate About the Term ‘Gamer’
Jerod Morris: Now, Jonny, you and I were just having an extremely, extremely interesting conversation here before we hit record. I would love for you to relay that to the listeners. It harkens back to last week’s discussion about what the term ‘gamer’ means. Is this more about video games, or as I suggested, is this more of a sports term for someone who maybe plays injured or comes up big in tough moments, they’re a gamer?
Obviously, the responses that we had on Twitter, you won. It was unanimous. I think part of that is the audience, but either way, I should know my audience.
Jonny Nastor: It’s a very smart audience. Very smart audience.
Jerod Morris: I lost there. However, were we to use, say, I don’t know, the dictionary as an objective arbiter of this debate, I wonder what it might have suggested.
Jonny Nastor: Interesting. Our audience is smart, and they know what a gamer is. But it was very cool of you, we asked for … to do a poll on Twitter. We got some great feedback, and it is a video gamer. But today, I was being just extra confident, over-confident perhaps.
I was going to make a funny remark back to someone on Twitter in regards to Jerod. I just Googled the definition. I was going to copy and paste it in for him, but the dictionary, the Merriam Webster’s dictionary, actually puts the first definition as a player who has game, especially an athlete who relishes competition. Then, two, is a person who plays games, especially a person who regularly plays computer or video games.
But then when I Google it, it actually comes up with the top thing at the top, and it says, “Gamer. Noun. A person who plays video games or participates in role-playing games,” and then two is, “North American. Especially in sports, a person known for consistently making a strong effort.”
It’s really back and forth. Our audience — the smartest audience, I believe, in the podcasting universe — fully, unanimously agreed that gamer is a video gamer, so I am gloating. But also the dictionary … who even reads dictionaries anymore? What is this?
Jerod Morris: Now, I would just say, what this shows is the reasonableness of why this became a discussion point because there were valid sides. There were valid arguments on both sides. We appreciate all of you participating. Jon appreciates your participation more than I do, but it was a fun discussion to have.
Jonny, are you ready to hop in and talk about today’s topic?
Jonny Nastor: Yeah.
The 3 Big Ideas of Learning
Jerod Morris: I’m excited about this one. We’re going to talk about learning. Actually, an hour before recording this, I just got done putting some slides together for a webinar that I’m preparing for Digital Commerce Academy. This is what spurred the idea for this episode. My guest on this webinar on Digital Commerce Academy is Peter C. Brown, who was the lead author of the book Make It Stick: The Science of Successful Learning, along with Henry Roediger and Mark McDaniel.
This is a book that takes a lot of emerging research on how we actually learn and puts it into stories and explanations that we can all actually put into our real lives. Some of the advice is counterintuitive. Some of it differs from maybe what we’ve been told or what we think actually works. This really gets down to here’s what the data says actually works when it comes to learning.
We can all read a book, look through a book, and so we try to learn. But did we actually retain the information, and what strategies will actually help us learn more? Not just go through the motions, but actually gain knowledge and gain skills that we can use in our daily lives, which is the whole benefit of learning.
In preparing this presentation with Peter, he talked about three big ideas of learning. This is how we are going to begin the webinar. I just want to talk about them here on the podcast because I think they are very applicable in two ways.
The first way is, obviously, as showrunners, we have to bring information to our audience. We have to bring knowledge and expertise of some kind. How do we gain that? That means that we have to be out there learning. So these are all techniques that we could use that we can make sure that we are learning effectively and using our time efficiently.
Secondly, if we have a show, most of us are trying to teach our audience something, so how do we effectively put out our information so that people can learn it effectively? On both of these levels, the content that we talk about today will work and be helpful. I’m excited to hop into it.
Jonny Nastor: Yeah. I am, too. This is cool. As we’re getting known to do, this has just been sprung on me, the topic, at the last minute, so it’s cool to sort of get an idea into this. Three big ideas about learning. All right. Let’s do it.
Jerod Morris: All right, man. You’re a gamer. You’re ready for that kind of podcast competition, so I know that you’ll be ready for this episode. All right, so here we go. Let’s talk.
Let’s run down these three big ideas. The first big idea is learning works by getting it out, not in. This is one of the more counterintuitive ideas that Peter talks about. Idea number two is that difficulty is desirable. Idea number three is that a growth mindset motivates. Let’s go through these one by one.
#1: Why Learning Is More About Pulling Information Out Than Putting It In
Jerod Morris: Let’s start at the top with learning works by getting it out, not in. We often think that … like for example, I read this book Make It Stick. Now, did the learning actually happen while I read that book, or did the learning actually happen after reading the book when I had to retrieve the information?
There were many times when I needed to retrieve the information. On the initial call that I had with Peter. When I was going down, getting the slides. Right now, as I’m talking about this. When did the learning actually happen? I’ll be curious, Jon, just to get your first instinct. When did the actual learning take place? Was it when I read the book or in all the times since when I have re-engaged with the ideas?
Jonny Nastor: Is it either or? Is it black and white?
Jerod Morris: It’s a bit of trick question. Obviously, you have to take in the information at first. But what the research shows is that for the learning to actually turn into something that you can use and that really embeds itself in your memory and something, again, that becomes useful to you later, it’s all about the retrieval that comes later.
Maybe through a quiz. Maybe through talking about it and trying to teach it to someone else. Maybe through preparing a webinar where you’re going to be teaching this information. That act of retrieval of the information is where you’re actually building the new neural pathways in the brain. It’s attaching itself to other parts, to other contexts within your mind. That’s where you can actually now use the information, and you’ve really learned it.
Otherwise, I would have read this book, but unless I just have a photographic memory, I guess, the information would soon fade. I wouldn’t have really learned anything. But through this active retrieval and through actually interacting with the information, I have actually embedded it in my memory and am able to use it in useful ways. That’s the basic point, explained by Peter much more elegantly than I just did, but that’s the main idea.
Jonny Nastor: So learning is active rather than passive?
Jerod Morris: Yes, and it is about retrieval rather than just ingestion. There are lots of studies that they did. Actually, let me pull one up right now because I can probably describe this better.
Jonny Nastor: Ingestion in this sense would be passive, right?
Jerod Morris: Yeah. For example, in one study, they had people learn a 50-word list over eight trials. For one set of people, it was four study sessions and then four sessions of retrieval, like quizzing or flashcards, that kind of thing. For the second one, it was six study sessions and two sessions of retrieval. Then, for the other one, it was eight study sessions and then no retrieval, so it was just like looking at the list and kind of studying the list.
What they found was that 48 hours later, the people who actually practiced, the people who had the four sessions of retrieval, it actually stuck better. They remembered the words in that list more. The recall probability was actually 39 percent for the people who had the four sessions of retrieval and the four study sessions. Twenty-five percent for the people who had the two retrieval sessions and the six study sessions, and 17% for the people who had no retrieval sessions and eight study sessions.
Again, with the idea being that you can actually recall more later, use this information more later … again, one of the other concepts here is interspersing it. So it’s not just like study it and then all this retrieval, but it’s maybe study it, retrieval, study, retrieval, study, retrieval. Interspersing it, mixing it up, encountering the information in different ways helps to solidify it in your mind, helps you to recall it, and helps you to be able to use it in a more meaningful way.
Jonny Nastor: Right, so this can be empowering for us as showrunners, as us like content creators, I would think. Correct me if I’m wrong, Jerod. But if we go back to choosing your character and the adventurer — the adventurer is how I see you and I for The Showrunner. We just need to be a step or two ahead of our audience and trying to figure stuff out by actively trying what we take in as information.
Then, by having to digest this and put it into a framework to then teach out in the show, we actually learn more from it. That keeps us further ahead, which allows us to be the adventurers to go out into the podcasting world, figure stuff out, try it, and then ingest it. But also figure out, “How do I turn this into an educational thing for our audience?” — which benefits us and the audience at the same time. So it’s this act, right?
Jerod Morris: Yeah, totally.
Jonny Nastor: It’s not like you have to be an expert. It’s just thinking of teaching, not in the sense that you are like a doctorate in podcasting … you are just barely in front of maybe your audience. It’s the act of working to teach it properly that allows us to actually learn more about the subject.
Jerod Morris: Yep. Teaching is learning, in a sense. By teaching, we’re solidifying more.
Jonny Nastor: It takes me like eight minutes to say. You’re like, “Teaching is learning.” Yeah, that would’ve been an easier to say it.
Jerod Morris: Okay, but remember, I’ve been working with this information a lot longer. That’s why it’s maybe a little bit more clear in my head, whereas right when I read the book, that wasn’t the case. The other thing to remember here is — and maybe this is something that we want to think about doing with The Showrunner — how do we, then, work with our audience?
We just did an episode last week and an episode before that. How do we recall some of those concepts and bring them back? Could we do a pop quiz at the beginning of every episode, asking people questions about last week’s episode? Because, now, if we ask them those questions, they’re going to have to go back and think back a little bit, re-engage with that information. We could do it after the episode.
There are different ways. Maybe in the weekly emails. There are maybe different ways that we could actively encourage retrieval, and I haven’t thought of any. It’s not like we have any even prepared for this episode, but that’s the other thing to think about. How these concepts that you’re teaching, how can you help encourage your audience to encounter them more, to try and retrieve them in their own mind to help them sink in a little bit more? That’s where a lot of the learning happens.
Jonny Nastor: Absolutely. To play the other side of it, we have to stay focused on our audience and not on ourselves and what we want for our audience and impose that upon them necessarily.
Lots of people, myself included I think sometimes, even though I’m listening to a ‘educational podcast’ or topic or something I’m into when I’m walking my dog, sometimes I just want passive listening. I just want to be entertained. Even if it’s a deep topic, I don’t want to be quizzed. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes, it’s like wanting to just sit down and watch Netflix.
Yes, it’s completely passive. Even if I’m watching a science show, I’m not really learning because — you just said, and it makes sense — we’re not trying to retrieve that. It feels like, “Well, at least I’m not watching trash,” but I’m not trying to actually learn to be quizzed on it.
If we’re in an education sequence, if somebody buys a course from us, we want to make sure they’re engaging and retrieving. But sometimes, we have to be aware of the fact that some people out there just want to listen passively, and that’s cool.
Jerod Morris: That’s a great point. So think about this. What if in the weekly email, you harken back to the previous week’s episode and asked a few questions. Just say, “Hey, want to take the quiz on last week’s episode?” or something. Make it an option for people.
Jonny Nastor: That’s cool.
Jerod Morris: If you’ve explained the whole idea. Now, again, they would have to understand this premise of what we’re talking about right now with learning to be motivated, but that is part of it. We won’t get into it in this episode, but teaching your audience, it kind of goes in with the growth mindset actually, which we’ll get to here in a minute.
#2: Why Difficulty Is Desirable
Jerod Morris: Then this leads us into number two, difficulty is desirable. The more that we struggle with information, the more that we struggle to learn, the more that it actually sinks in, and the more that it embeds itself, which is, of course, the goal. A lot of times we, naturally, will recoil from that difficulty.
If the topic feels like it’s a little bit beyond us, it’s like, “Well, I’m not ready for this yet. I’m not going to learn it.” But again, one of the things that research has shown is that when you really struggle through learning something, it is really going to help you. That difficulty is good.
Let’s say that you’re getting ready to go to a training seminar for how to put together a dishwasher. I don’t know why that example popped into my head, but it just popped into my head. Do you have any experience with putting together dishwashers? I don’t. I don’t know the first thing.
Jonny Nastor: You’re right. This is totally random.
Jerod Morris: Yeah. I don’t know the first thing about putting together a dishwasher, so I would have zero context. If I went to a seminar on putting together a dishwasher, I would be totally lost. But imagine if, before doing that, I took apart my dishwasher at home. Now, I would really struggle through this. I wouldn’t know what I’m doing. It would be ridiculous. My wife would probably hate me because we wouldn’t be able to wash dishes.
Jonny Nastor: “And now you’re leaving for the weekend to go to a seminar about it?”
Jerod Morris: Yeah, exactly. Of course, I would learn something very important there, which is never take the dishwasher apart again. But imagine now, when I go to the seminar, how much more ready to learn I will actually be. I’ll understand a little bit more of the context. So I’ve struggled with this really difficult part, but it starts to get a little bit easier. This difficulty is actually desirable and will help the information really sink in.
If we embrace that difficulty, and part of the way that we embrace it is understanding this growth mindset, which we’ll talk about, but if we embrace that difficulty … and it’s the same thing with what you were just explaining.
Trying to be a step or two ahead of your audience. Go a little bit outside of your comfort zone. Learn something that you don’t know. Even try and explain something that you’re not 100 percent sure of, kind of like I’m doing right now on this podcast. Again, you can’t go on a show that your audience is expecting you to say something reasonable and just totally fumble around with it.
But that difficulty, for you especially while learning, is actually going to be helpful. It’s going to be better in the long run. That difficulty is something to walk toward, not to avoid is the main point.
Jonny Nastor: It’s totally verified within my head as you’re saying this because these episodes where we just make three points, now let’s do a half hour, and we really sort of work through it live, these are the ones that stick with me. These are the ones that totally change some sort of way I think, and then I take it other places in my day to day, which is interesting. Not like, “Well, there’s our 12 points already completely written out. Let’s read it off.”
It’s kind of like, “What was last week’s topic? I can’t remember it,” but the ones we do this, there it is. Because it’s true — we used to really avoid these because of the difficulty, these ones. Now we’re just like, “Oh, let’s do it.” It’s either, half hour, it’s going to be good, or we’ll just trash it.
Jerod Morris: This isn’t to say that you should use your show as just a place where you’re only thinking about your own education so that you’re fumbling through explanations. Again, you’ve got to come to it with something, and something meaningful.
In this case, I feel comfortable enough explaining this information to explain it in a way that people will get something out of it. I know through your experience that, just with the context that I’ll explain, you’ll have interesting points to make. That’s obviously important as you’re planning your show. Again, that point is this difficulty can actually be helpful in you learning something.
It works the same way if you’re actually learning something physically, too … like if you want to be a better putter. If you go out and you want to improve your putting from 20 feet out, there’s a school of thought that says just take up 200 putts. Or like with basketball with free throw shooting, want to become a better free throw shooter? Take 100 free throws in a row. I guess you can learn a little bit from that, but what’s actually better is mixing it up.
That’s harder because you can get in a real rhythm, especially shooting free throws, just one after the other. You feel like you’re locking it into that muscle memory, but what actually helps you do that more is to space it out — what’s called interleaving.
Instead of just taking 120-foot putts, over and over again, take 10 from 20 feet, and then go to 30 feet. Then go to 10 feet, and move it around. Go to some different angles. Mixing it up will actually help more in the long run. It will be a little bit more uncomfortable while you’re doing it, but that difficulty will help you actually learn the skill and the underlying concept more than just, “Hey, in this moment, I’ve really practiced this, and I’ve got the feeling down.”
Same thing with like memorizing a long string. You can cram like 10 minutes before and really try to memorize this thing and then regurgitate it out on a piece of paper, but have you learned it? That’s the key. Have you learned it in the way that you can actually use it? That’s what we’re talking about here is how to do that with information or skills because it applies to both.
Again, we are really buzzing over the surface of this, but I highly recommend the book Make It Stick. Just search for Make It Stick anywhere that books are available. It is a book that, in many ways, can transform how you think about learning because so much of what they talk about in there is counterintuitive to what we think and what we’ve been told.
Jonny Nastor: From dishwashers to golf, to basketball, back to golf. I don’t know where we’re going to go with point three, but kind of looking forward to it. The analogies that are being used right now are fascinating.
Jerod Morris: Hey, I do want to remind everybody to go to StudioPress Sites also and check it out. If you’re a podcaster and you’re looking to build your platform or maybe you’re looking to change where your platform is hosted, I really think that you should give StudioPress Sites a try.
As I mentioned at the beginning, it is a turnkey solution. It’s fully hosted. Your security stuff is all taken care of. All of that is taken care of, along with all the design options that you get and then the preferred plugins that are suggested there for you. It really is a neat solution for anybody who’s building a website, but especially podcasters.
If you go to Rainmaker.FM/StudioPress, you can see the two different plans that are available. Look at those two different plans. See which one is right for you, and then give it a try. You’re not locked into anything. Nothing like that, but you can give it try. See if it’s the right fit for you. For a lot of people, it has proven to be, so I did want to make one more mention of that. You can do that at Rainmaker.FM/StudioPress.
#3: The Importance of Having a Growth Mindset
Jerod Morris: Jonny, you are familiar, I am certain, and many of our listeners are certainly familiar with Carol Dweck’s work on the growth versus the fixed mindset, correct?
Jonny Nastor: Yes, absolutely.
Jerod Morris: This is where this third element comes from. A growth mindset motivates. Why does a growth mindset motivate? Maybe we should summarize real quick the difference between a growth and a fixed mindset.
A fixed mindset is essentially where you think that your skills are fixed and aren’t really going to grow or develop with work. Someone with a growth mindset really understands that they get out what they put in. Whatever they’ve achieved, whatever success they have had, it isn’t just because of something that they are naturally born with or naturally have. It’s because they’ve really worked to develop this, that, or the other skill.
The reason why a growth mindset motivates is it gives us the belief that our actions, what we study, what we work at, we can really improve. Obviously, we are going to be more motivated to do something that we think we’re going to get a return on the investment that we’re putting in. If we feel like our intelligence is fixed, we’re just kind of as smart as we are, and this is hard, we’re not really going to struggle with it because we kind of think, “Well, all right. Maybe this isn’t something that I can learn.”
Someone with a growth mindset understands the value of that work, the impact that work can have, and believes that they will benefit from it and become better from it down the road. You can see how that first mindset is going to be less likely to stick with and struggle with information, work, or a new skill, whereas the growth mindset really would be willing to.
That has been proven time and time again to be much more effective when it comes to learning and growth. That’s the basic idea there. I bumbled through it a little bit, but pretty fair description, contrast between the two?
Jonny Nastor: Yeah. I think it’s totally. Honestly, I have such a hard time getting my mind around the fixed mindset and how somebody could have that mindset. Like, “You honestly believe that every trait, skill, and intelligence level that you have from a young age, those innate things are just … that’s all you get?”
Jerod Morris: It’s like anything. It’s a scale. There’s growth on one side, fixed on the other side. It’s not like everybody is black or white, in one category or the other. It probably shifts for some people, depending on what it is, too. Some people may have a growth mindset when it comes to intellectual work, but they don’t have a growth mindset when it comes to physical fitness just because of their experience, how they are raised, or for any number of different reasons. So it can depend.
But I think specifically when it comes to learning, a growth mindset in a particular skill is probably important to, say, motivate someone to do the hard, sometimes dirty work that it takes to improve in that skill. That’s important.
Jonny Nastor: Yeah, it is. I can’t think of any skill worth learning, getting, or mastering, if you will, that wouldn’t take a lot of hard work — difficult work, too. The stuff that’s hard and could be embarrassing when you’re no good at it, but you got to work through all that stuff.
That certain amount of bad radio in you as a podcaster, all that stuff, you have to have the mindset that you can push through that stuff. You can go back to the beginning of any of our podcasting careers and have absolute proof that this is true. I wouldn’t even want to listen to that stuff now, I’m sure, from years and years ago, of me finally sitting down to record in front of a microphone, but it’s proof that it can. It is motivating.
Basically, if you want to do this, if you want to build that show or build that audience, all those things are attainable to you if you do enough work, you stop just passively trying to learn these things and actually switch to actively, and then take directly onto the difficulty.
Jerod Morris: Here’s another quote from Carol Dweck herself that kind of sums up the difference, too. She says, “Those with the growth mindset found setbacks motivating. Not only weren’t they discouraged by failure, they didn’t even think they were failing. They thought they were learning.”
That, I think, is the other distinction because someone with a fixed mindset is going to look at a mistake as a failure. Like, “I messed up.” Like, “Okay. I’m supposed to be smart, and I didn’t get this. I failed. And this somehow impacts like my personal view of myself, my self-identity.”
Whereas someone who has a growth mindset, they’re just thinking, “Hey, I’m constantly evolving. I’m constantly changing and improving. So okay, I messed this up, but this is moving me toward learning. This is moving me toward success, so it’s not even a failure. If anything, it’s a temporary failure, but it’s a means toward a greater end.” They take that with a different attitude.
That’s almost the difference between these two is the attitude with which you approach that inevitable failure when you’re learning something new, which brings us back to the difficulty being desirable. And again, takes us all the way back to the first big idea about learning, which is that learning isn’t about that first step. It’s not about the ingestion in. It’s not about your coach telling you, “Here’s how to swing a golf club,” and you’ve just taken that in.
It’s about the actual getting it out and swing after swing after swing, and swings in different locations, swings in all different ways that you can then retrieve that information. That’s where it starts to get locked in.
When you have all three of these together — this understanding of the importance of retrieval, a recognition of the desirability of difficulty, and then a growth mindset underlying it all — this is where you can really unlock the power of learning. That’s not just me saying it. It’s not just Peter Brown and these authors coming up with theories. This is actually data-backed research and advice that just works.
To me, it does makes sense. Once you actually read it and lay it out, it does make intuitive sense, but it does fly in the face a little bit of what we might think intuitively and, in some ways, what we’ve been told about learning.
Jonny Nastor: Very cool.
Jerod Morris: Anything else to add before we close up shop?
Jonny Nastor: I don’t think so. I think we kind of nailed it. Not like nailed it as in like we’re awesome.
Jerod Morris: Well, okay.
Jonny Nastor: I mean nailed the topic. I think it’s good. It’s got me thinking. It’s cool. Really covering topics of thought and spending time thinking and now learning. It’s cool.
Jerod Morris: Yes. If you do want to kind of have fun with this idea, send us a Tweet. Don’t rewind. Don’t do anything like that, but send us a Tweet, and let us know the three big ideas. Can you recall them? See if you can retrieve them real quick.
What were the three ideas that we just talked about? We’re not going to make these post-episode pop quizzes a recurring thing here on the episode, but it would be really interesting to know and maybe just a good test for yourself for how much, listening through this episode, you can retain. But again, learning is about getting it out, not just getting it in. Let’s give you an opportunity to do that.
Send us a Tweet @JerodMorris, @JonNastor. Let us know what the three big ideas were about learning — #gamer. Put that on there because, if you do this, you’re a gamer. You’re down for the challenge of competition. You understand that the difficulty … wait, I’m about to give one of them away.
All right. Let’s get out of here before I give all three of them away and render the quiz useless.
Jonny Nastor: Yeah, it’s been fun.
Jerod Morris: One other thing that we do want to make mention is that we have a really great report for you and a really cool series of emails that we think will help you. This is really geared toward people who are thinking about launching a podcast. I do think that there is something useful there for people if you’re a little bit more experienced. But we have gotten some feedback from people, frankly, that it’s not as great a fit for people who maybe are a little bit more experienced, a little bit further down the road in your podcasting, so that’s okay.
We wanted to be transparent about that just because that’s some of the feedback that we’re getting, but if you’re in the process of, say, defining your audience or you’re not even familiar yet with what the different paths to monetization are for a podcast, you’re looking to get equipment, some basic equipment to get started, then this really will be for you.
If you go to Showrunner.FM/Report, you will get the free 9-Step Beginner’s Guide to Launching a Podcast, along with a great series of emails that ask you some other important questions that you should be asking yourself as you go through the process of launching a podcast. Again, go to Showrunner.FM/Report, and don’t ever forget to turn your phones on mute before you start recording a podcast.
I don’t know if you could hear that, but my phone just went off.
Jonny Nastor: I didn’t hear it.
Jerod Morris: Oh, well then I shouldn’t have said anything. Edit that out, Toby. Edit me out.
Jonny Nastor: All the way back to the beginning, Toby.
Jerod Morris: All right. We will talk to you next week on another brand-new episode of The Showrunner.
Jonny Nastor: Take care.